Suzuki F3 parts are Sugaya... sorry for knowing that! They aren't particularly impressive though to be honest, unlike the HRC and YEC/Sugo parts.
The YEC/Sugo TZR's are pretty much TZ's, as the HRC NSR's are pretty much RS's (for the sake of argument), but the RGV is still a road motor with some afterthought bits thrown at it. It was a donkey amongst race horses right from the beginning!
The RS is a great bike, and I love them, but there's something about taking a production bike that started life on the street and adding the kit yourself... and still having a production bike on the street when you've finished. I'd still love an RS, but where's the fun in buying a bike where it's all been built by someone in a factory somewhere? _________________ Andy.
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Andy wrote:The RS is a great bike, and I love them, but there's something about taking a production bike that started life on the street and adding the kit yourself... and still having a production bike on the street when you've finished. I'd still love an RS, but where's the fun in buying a bike where it's all been built by someone in a factory somewhere?
Oh, trust me... the RS has a lot of room to grow from the factory.
Ye, fine, the frame stays unless your looking at a TSR frame. But suspension, brakes, rims, controls, etc. can all be made better. _________________ Charles Gallant
As with most things, it depends on how far you want to go.
On my year 2000 NX5 RS250 I bought a full JHA kit (cylinders, heads, pipes, PGM, gear position sensor, PJ cut outs etc) and it added 5 bhp mid range and 2 at the top end, - what a different bike it became. That was off the shelf, so with time and effort, you can get more. Funny that when you compare genuine factory parts, they often go in the opposite direction to the so called 'tuners'. On the JHA cylinders for example, the exhaust port was infact lower than stock.
On the dyno I have heard some of the best power increases people have made are from a new chain and correct tyre pressure, so it shows you just how much untapped potential a lot of bikes out there have.
Yes, I understand all that, even Steve's F3 could be improved upon, with maybe VHM style heads, AVGAS, and ramair, but my point is that with an RS it's really ready to go out of the box... and been built in a factory.
There's a lot of satisfaction putting something together yourself. I could buy a Caterham 7, but I much prefer to build and drive Westfields!
An RS is a Caterham. It's built in a factory, and extreme performance out of the box, but can still be improved some. An F3 is a Westfield, built from parts, with a huge satisfaction of building from scratch, even though the end product is extremely similar. The Caterham is always just that little bit better, but not that much better in the majority of cases.
Sure, the difference between an F3 NSR and a late NX5 or NXA is going to be quite pronounced, but the difference between an F3 and an NF5 is nowhere near so clear cut! I think the 90~91 F3 never got centre mounted spark plugs or redesigned RC Valves like the RS because it would've then been at least equal to the NF5, if not better, and Honda could never allow production bike performance capable of exceeding their HRC race bikes!
HRC were already racing 72° NSR's by 1992, and the NF5 became the NX5 in 1993. I don't think a 1992 NF5 will ever see more than a couple of HP more than a similarly tuned/specified F3, and what it would've gained at peak it would've lost way more on the way up! GP bikes in the 90's appeared awesome, but in reality the 88~92 bikes weren't really any hotter than NSR and TZR F3's... the riders on the other hand made them spectacular!
Ride Steve's F3 and you realise just how fast an NSR can be; just about as fast as an equivellant RS. The NSR loses out on weight. It's never going to be quite as light as an RS or factory NSR. OK, the factory NSR's were most likely +3~4hp on an RS, but you guys aren't/weren't riding factory NSR's, and I think you would be shocked at how good and how similar to an RS a full, well set up F3 really is! _________________ Andy.
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DifferentStrokes wrote:The mc18 & 18f3 is argueable the best of the nsr's because it is most like the RS...(f3 anyway) It's the fork in the road. They get more (21) and more (28 ) watered down(read: so watered down they had to make them pretty), or futher and futher from the RS.
(Racers don't want to race "street" bikes, Street bikers want race "type" bikes they don't have to rebuild every week.)
That's not really true is it?
In 1988/1989 the NSR shared shape and engine design with both the customer RS250 and the factory NSR250 GP bikes, they all looked something like this 1988 factory Rothmans 250 GP bike.
By the time we get to 1990 this is what a factory 250 GP bike looks like, nothing like the customer RS250 which still looks like an mc18 and will continue to do so until 1993 when it's replaced with the NX5. It'll get the new PGMII electrics from the factory bike, but retain the mc18 style frame.
The quite obvious move for the NSR roadbike was to follow the lines of the GP bike, it's what the Japanese race fans see racing on TV every week, it's what they want to ride on the street.
Look at the 1991 F3 kitted bike, look at the 1991 factory 250 GP bike and tell me again that the two are far apart.
Of course then by the time we get to the '28 (1993) this is what the GP bike looks like (the same as an RS250 NX5 will look) and it shares no common parts with any NSR roadbike.
The '28 was just made to look like a 500 v-twin. F3 racing was over, SS and SP racing were all there was left and the whole 250 2 stroke race rep era was coming to an end in Japan. _________________ Please do not PM me technical questions, if you can't find it on the Forum start a thread
I think the NSR500V and the MC28 looking similar was more of a "happy accident" for the MC28!
The MC28 came first, and as luck would have it, HRC for some reason decided the 500V drive should be on the opposite side to the NX5 and factory NSR's... probably to make use of existing RC45 swingarms! Still confused as to why they chose that setup however. _________________ Andy.
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An NX5 is always going to be better than any F3/NF5.
The comparison is between the NF5 and F3. There really isn't much to choose between them. If like Andy said the F3 had got proper RC valves I think the power would be almost identical at all stages of tune.
Dan. The exhaust port thing is an interesting fact. I've found similar good results with the NSR but using the RC valve to lower the port rather than adjusting the port window itself. _________________ If I have to take the carbs off once more...
Dan's not the only one to comment on the RS port timing either. It seems the 92 NF5 went "backwards" in port design as the 1991 was too extreme. _________________ Andy.
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I think the MC16 was kit only, but the MC18 and MC21 were available as complete bikes from Honda. Official "stock" F3 figures were 70 and 72ps respectively. Not sure how that measures up to stock 88/89 and 90 RS figures, but I bet it's fairly close. _________________ Andy.
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'89 RS is rated at 74ps from Honda. F3 is rathed at 70ps as you say Andy for the same model year. _________________ If I have to take the carbs off once more...
DifferentStrokes wrote:[Put a STOCK 18 , 21 , 28 up against a STOCK RS and they WILL finish... RS, 18, 21, 28.....
Maybe, but if you put a 1989 mc18, a 1991 mc21 and any '28 in the best state of tune customer HRC parts (of that model) can get them into, where do they finish now?
Almost certainly '21, '18, '28. _________________ Please do not PM me technical questions, if you can't find it on the Forum start a thread
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