And, as Forrest would say, "that's all I gotta say about that", Dmitry.
I would've preferred to have left it with my initial reply which I think was more than accurate enough to have based your own opinion on. _________________ Andy.
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Andy , what I am trying to say is that the 300 has improved since you guys tested the special 300 ( Maxims bike ? ) .
To say that they just break is unfair and casting a bad image on them and insulting the father of the 300 .
I have shown a graph comparing my 250 vs my 300 and I feel it is a fair reflection of what can be achieved with a 300 .
Ps : look at the curve not the hp .
Come on other 300 guys ! Either back me up or shoot me down , either way I am happy to discuss this !
I'm afraid every 300 I have personally seen or know of has seized; most more than once.
When they are running however, I'm not disputing the mid-range. I am not disputing they are better now than they were. I'm not disputing there have been improvements. What I am disputing is that they are an effective alternative to a 250... not performance-wise, cost-wise, and certainly not reliability-wise.
The benefit is you get new components and original Honda plating on the barrels. If they didn't fail with almost monotonous regularity, or the reason for the failures could be pinpointed, then it would be a good kit. As it is, the failures are random (for example, Steve's 300 was ragged absolutely senseless against a 70hp MC21 with RS barrels at a Llandow trackday all day once, with never so much as a murmur, only to go pop a couple days later on a ride to my place 45 miles up the road!) and we will no longer touch them because of it. No, we've not done anything with them for some time now, and not had one on the dyno for about 18 months, but we've also not seen any solid evidence with own own eyes to convince otherwise. I am sure you are aware that Matt was at a track day with us recently... there were at least two people there that own 300's, and neither of them would bring them for "the father of the 300" to either ride or set up. Even they didn't have confidence in them.
Trust me, and I've been laughed at for saying it before, I don't take any pleasure in knocking the kit or Matt; he's one of my best friends, but he also knows I speak as I find, and I bite my tongue on many an occasion. But when I am pulled up about it, I will say my piece and I will speak from experience!
I would give anything to run Steve's F3 on your dyno, or your 300 on his. Make of that what you will.
I do look at the 300 argument objectively, just as when necessary, I answer questions about RS's, RGV's, and TZR's objectively. I encouraged wb to press on with his 3XV when he gave up, knowing there was more in it. Steve and I will do everything in our power to get the best results (no, that does not mean squeeze out the last 0.1hp!) when people come to visit, irrespective of what they turn up with.
My final note on the matter:
Something many new owners fail to take into consideration, is that often a 300 kit is fitted as part of a rebuild or restoration.
The bike will most likely have already been very tired (and we've seen plenty of NSR250's with leaky seals/bad cranks/worn pistons/rings) and probably making 50-odd horsepower, or maybe even have been restricted still. Then take into account they may not ride the bike for a further 6~12 months during the rebuild process, or while waiting for a kit to arrive. They bolt it all up, complete with a nice shiny, noisy set of race pipes, and remember the tired 50hp gutless bike that it was before, and suddenly get the 66hp "rush" with a bag of mid-range! Of course they are going to rave about it!
I'm afraid have nothing more to add to the thread now, as it will just be reiterating the same points over and over again. _________________ Andy.
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I agree that some riders will be stunned by the extra torque compared to a sick NSR they had before . They are plonkers .
I made a offer long ago for anyone to send me their motor to be run on our dyno at my expense . Just to compare apples to apples . We can agree on some stipulations first etc no problem .
I am not saying that my package is beter than xyz , I am saying that perhaps there is a different way to go about it to achieve the desired result .
Can i just say i love my 300 on the road and it's an excellent fun machine that still gives a buzz when you ride it. I do agree it can be expensive [2 seizures in 4 years] but we all have to make do with what we have got and it should not put anyone off building one.
I am one of those mentioned above that did not take it to Donington for the track day as it had been on the dyno recently and i was told that it suffers from excessive exhaust temperatures at full chat and he did not recommend using it on the track. It's fine on the road as there are not many places where you can go flat out for long periods [ blasting up and down straight roads is no fun]. He seemed to think it was the stingers being too small or possibly the angle of the exhaust where it mates to the barrel due to poor gas flow. So why risk it when i can seize my Aprilia instead...... _________________ MC21 300
Aprilia RS250 track bike
Once again, appreciate all the response, I didn't mean to troll or ruffle any feathers, but I do enjoy heated debate at times.
Reading all of above it's pretty clear what I must do: need to have both, built 250 for the track and lazy 300 for the street!
Cost is an issue so it will be a while before I can move on either one, meanwhile I'll be fixing and selling some of my scooters to pay for it all
Before anyone gets uptight, this isn't a pissing contest... this is our demo graph. The bikes will remain anonymous.
The blue trace is a standard MC21 300,as it comes from TYGA.
The red trace is an NSR-WORLD MC21 250SS motor.
The green trace is one of the best MC21 250SP's we've tested.
All three bikes are wire-spliced, HRC kitted carbs, and stainless race pipes.
Our 250SS spec, if you want to be pedantic, actually makes more mid-range than a 300, and is considerably less than £1200!
I didn't consider your initial post trolling, Dmitry, and I doubt Neal did either. Don't worry about it.
Edited to upload an alternative graph with the figures blanked, to demonstrate nothing more than the shape of the respective graphs. _________________ Andy.
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That is a very important point about stinger size . We have increased ours to suit the 300's needs .
If you use an EGT (100 usd ) you can keep an eye on these things and act accordingly .
I should add that the above is our "basic" SS tune. We don't alter the port timing. That's stock port windows. Those are the best "comparison" graphs, and also why an effectively "standard" 300 is shown.
The SP also has standard porting. _________________ Andy.
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those are some good comparisons , i think the 300 vs the stock SP is what most new 300 owners will feel .
What does the SS tune consist of as i assume this is a tuned 250 vs a mismatch 300 .
If you've got no special tuning knowledge, special tools or 2T tuning experience? Buy the 300 kit and bolt the power on.
If you're up to your eyeballs in contacts, knowledge, experience and access to a dyno whenever you need it? Tune your 250 to achieve the same thing. Whatever special witchcraft that involves.
I had a cast piston skirt break, the motor lost power but kept running and got me home. I've never had a seizure and my local track is basically three 5th/6th gear drag strips with hairpins at the ends. I use the forged pistons offered by Tyga now.
It seems in my absence the truth has been distorted somewhat Andy!
Firstly, my 300 can't be considered any where near F3 spec. It's no different to what anyone could do to their 250, and hasn't really had much done to the engine aside from some barrel and mild bottom end work. Secondly, the pipes I've run it with are standard 250 pipes. I've got some Harc Pro's from one of my old 250's I'm going to try on it in place of the TYGA's, as the chambers and pipe are fatter and I'm hoping that will suit the increased induction capability.
My first 300 engine did many many miles before letting go, and it was a tired engine in any case, so could have been caused by anthing really, but the new one, as you know, happened far too quickly.
The thing to remember, is that it was an experiment, so far from finished, and the PWK39s that it was running on the dyno runs were certainly not carburating correctly, hence the reason it seemed to have no change in performance going up or down main jet 4 sizes either way. The airbox also had no work done. Essentially there were too many untried variables and in hindsight, it would have been better to work through each area methodically.
Compared to the F3, and the graph I posted with my orginal 300 running standard carbs, my original running PJ38s, my new one running PWK39s and that 350LC that was a monster, my 300 actually made more power(the F3 made 70), and peaked about 200rpm later. It also revved out to the same rpm as the F3, so I think TYGA and Matt did a pretty damn good job to get the mass spinning that fast. I've forgotten how to upload otherwise I'd stick it up!
So summed up, it felt far more urgent than any 250 I'd ever ridden (would have loved to try the F3 to compare...), would flip in 2nd if you wanted it to and certainly felt far from lazy in the way it rode.
PS - Facebook site looks good. _________________ NSR300R - Why did i ever have a 250...
Straight from the horses mouth .
Hi Maxim , what spec is your bike at now and have you developed it any more ?
Beter if you can get some 300 purpose made pipes . My bike loves them .
My mistake on the pipes, I thought they were modified. The rest stands as I've been lead to believe. As far as I've been told, the motor is far more than "lightly modified". This information was fed to me long before the motor was completed and run for the first time.
Of course, I've not seen inside it, so comment on what I've believe to be accurate information. The long and the short of it is I was told it was expected to make mid~high 70's by Matt, and it didn't. Not on the dyno you first ran it on, and not on Steve's, where I was again under the impression it was expected to make more than 72hp.
As I've already said though, my problem isn't with the 300 kit, it's with expecting it to be more than it is. Getting a true 70hp+ out of one and then keeping it in one piece is no mean feat, and getting 72hp out of one on unleaded is bloody good! Maybe you've been mislead to the amount of work that's been put into it after the results were less than expected?
Are you going to deny you were considering going back to a 250 after it let go, and were also disappointed by the dyno runs? Did you not make enquiries regarding a tuned 250 setup? Did it not let go on it's first proper track use? Maybe you were just considering the addition of a 250? The fact is I was told you made the enquiry whilst looking down the barrel of another seized 300!
It's unfortunate that it can't all be looked on objectively. I am simply saying expect no more than a "good" 250, but with a bag of mid-range. (I.e. around 65hp and a graph that looks like our basic SS250 tune.) Also, there is no getting past the 300 failure rate. I stand by my comment that I don't know a single one that's not let go at least once. I know of another in the UK that was promised in the region of 80hp, that's let go three times now. Dave Booth's lovely Fortuna was perpetually seized, and I seem to recall being told Gavin Jap4's also let go not long after being set up "safe" on the dyno. The list is endless, and when my judgement is called into question, unfortunately its the integrity of the kit that comes out in the wash, not my distortion of the facts.
Thanks for the comment on the Facebook page. _________________ Andy.
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